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Old Jul 02, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComMan
I felt this way for a long long time. Most people will just say, "no they don't, you just suck!" However, a few people actually decided to show me what I was doing wrong and help me get it right. Once you know what you're doing as a Ranger you really are much more powerful than you think.
Basically, you used mixed skills. You used both Offensive and defensive skill of a ranger. I know because a lot of dorks of gamefaqs.com build them the same way.

You have to focus on one aspect of the Ranger. Either the defensive aspect when protecting the monk or offensive aspect, which is to take the down the spellcaster.

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You bring spirits to the table, which are easily the Ranger's biggest asset. Spirits can totally eff the other team and give your team huge boosts if you and your team know what you're doing. Take the time to collect every spirit and know how they work. They'll be a big part of your job once you get to the Tombs.
Rangers play slightly different based on their environment. The Ranger's gameplay revolves around them keeping their terrainal advantage and using preparations. (spirits included)

If you are TPK, you are most likely a offensive build. If you are in arena/team arena, you are most likely a defensive build. Defensive don't work well in TPK because they are too many people going for the monk while in arena/team offensive isn't all that great because many small teams are effective as an all warrior or all spellcaster team. Rangers are made to weed out individual characters within the other party.

But again, whatever that Ranger can do, the other class can do better. A mesmer can kill a caster in a couple of seconds. A elementalist can do up to 200 spike damage in a couple seconds. Again, a ranger has a hard time shining in groups that effecient without him.
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19   #42
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Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
You don't need a wilderness survival bow, it gives you traps, poison dmg, and survival skills (hence the name), you arent gimped out of much dmg, and in some cases, given more... really... you still havent passed grade school? Un-able to count?
I should stop right here and say "I rest my case." I really should. Apparently Poison, which does exactly 8 dps, as the only Wilderness Survival skill you have, does more damage than a 15-25 damage bow and Tiger's Fury. But you're not even using Beast Mastery, so Tiger's Fury would be a waste of a skill slot, wouldn't it?

And at the same time, I sure can't use Poison with my BOW! No way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
Of course there are alot of bad players out there... but those arent the players i'm talking about... my pet interuption skills + my interuption skills = shutting out a ton of your skills, and for that fact, any "pure bow" rangers, just by me being able to spam my interuption skills (with my perfect expertise-- comes in like a charm)
So you're such a badass that you can interrupt skills that take 0-.75 seconds, despite the fact that the fight time on the fastest bows is .65 seconds? The build that you posted has neither Favorable Winds nor Read the Wind, so you can't speed up your arrows. Just disrupting lunge can't possibly disable every single skill I have, even if you use Oath Shot to go with it.

In other words: this is an obvious lie.

Trying to make yourself sound uber is just pointing out the flaws in your own argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
If i switch from wilderness survival to marksmanship... i won't really change much dmg... since my dps can be placed on many characters (poison), and last for 24 seconds or so (On all my enemies, rather then just one target... and at the same time, my pet is attacking one target)... you're still stupid, and you have nothing to back your theories up... i have tested, and proven that you don't need marksmanship for full dmg output. If you have any skill, you'd understand what happens in a battle.
Do you understand what you're saying? You've tested EVERY SINGLE COMBINATION in EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and PROVEN that you will ALWAYS do more damage without Marksmanship?

If you think what I said is wrong you're free to provide facts to back yourself up, but spewing "you're stupid!" won't help your case.

Poison by itself does 8 damage per second.

A bow by itself does about 16-18 damage per second, less against armored targets. This is considering that you use no skills, not even Penetrating Attack or Tiger's Fury, to boost yourself.

By carrying just Poison and a pet, you're doing less damage than you would with a pet and a bow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Or how about snaring the enemy, blinding them, and then setting traps around them?
Pin Down sure can't snare, and I sure can't use Throw Dirt since my build has 13 Expertise.

As for traps, they certainly don't do 50 damage for 15 mana and have huge recharge times. In opposition to that, Penetrating attack sure can't do 70 damage for 10 mana, and sure doesn't have a 3 second recharge time. I'm sure your traps and the bleeding they cause is outdamage my Melandru's Arrows and the bleeding that they cause though, despite the fact that it's the same bleeding. Besides, I never get that +21 damage from Melandru's Arrows, because casters never use enchantments.

How about playing on a TEAM? How about using Nature's Renewal to remove all the enchantments from the other team at a crucial moment or snaring a fleeing monk with Pin Down? How about I use Throw Dirt to save my team's monk from a warrior, instead of using it to plant traps on that warrior (assuming nobody else hits you while you plant those traps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

That's right... but sometimes a good snare takes a second class (Holy crap, you mean you can mix skills and make better characters? No way dude...!!)
Because I can use Runes to modify my secondary class! D'oh, wait no I can't! There are also tons on Non-Ranger skills affected by Expertise! Oh wait, only Ranger and Warrior skills are affected by Expertise.

Aside from that, as a Ranger I'm sure the team didn't pick me up for my Ranger skills. Guess I'll spam Mesmer skills and wonder why they didn't recruit a Mesmer primary, since he can get 16 Domination and some Fast Casting whereas I can only get 12 Domination and no Fast Casting.

If you're actually using your secondary it's for something very specific. Just carrying random Mesmer skills won't help me or my team at all, which is why I don't carry them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
You morons that think rangers suck... Ever tried halls of hero's with poison/bleeding, and use epidemic
hmm....let me think here...

Poison- 8 damage per second
Bleed- 6 damage per second.

14 damage per second....less if every single shot from my bow does minimum damage.

If you think Epidemic is good then you've clearly never actually used it. 2 warrirors on the same target can be far enough apart that it won't affect them. I'm not exaggerating on this, it's very true.

You do realize that I can carry Wilderness Survival AND Marksmanship, right? I do play a 3 attribute build, I just never take Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery at the same time. I switch them depending on what my team needs spirit-wise.

I can tell from your posts that you're a real team player, and are plenty willing to rework your build to fit what your team wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
(Oh yea... you can mix epidemic skill, and still have barrage... Wow, aoe effects and dmg!! (Oh wait, that's using marksmanship, and that's what we're trying to avoid here, so i won't talk about many more marksmanship skills)..
True, I can carry Barrage, but I have 12 Marks and 13 Expertise, so I can spam it and do +13 damage every second. You know what else? I'll never deplete my mana doing this. Can you say the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

(Very good for the massive numbers of people within a small area) just one small good mix...
So if I'm, say, in an 8 v 8 arena, and the other team has 3 monks and at least 2 elementalists, all of whom can stand apart from each other and still do their jobs, this is obviously going to do me a lot of good. That must be why I see so many Air Elementalists (single target damage) and so few Fire Elementalists (area of effect)! Brilliant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Of course pets are near worthless without me alive... but it's still about 5-10 more dmg per hit then your dead ass... point in case moron.
Pets do 15-25 if you're running 12 BM, if your pet is doing 5-10 then the build you posted is a lie and everything you've said is hypothetical.

But you scientifically tested every single aspect of the game, so you know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK
and if my allies res me (which should happen) i still dealt a reasonable (and very pathetic) dmg rate to the target.
I'll let that statement stand for itself. I'm going out of my way to make counterpoints to this for the people that actually read before responding. If you're reading this and still support what this guy's saying, please don't put an obvious contradation in a "major point."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

and sometimes people stop to target a pet after i die (Which gives other allies more time to res/kill other enemies--- another stradegy skill, hmm...)

And sometimes they kill your pet before you die, disabling you for 14 seconds at least (8 seconds because your pet died, 6 seconds to cast revive animal). Funny, this can't happen with my bow....

And sometimes they just walk away, because your pet won't leave your corpse. Then again, a lot of the time they ignore you pet, because without any skills to back him up he's not a threat.

This is the last set of counter-points you're getting. If you or your buddies have any other "You don't need marksmanship you noob!" arguments to make, then please pick someone else to put them forward.
Last edited by ComMan; Jul 02, 2005 at 06:31 AM // 06:31..
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23   #43
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Originally Posted by ComMan
As for pets as weapons: my bow doesn't take up 2 skill slots just to equip and I don't have to babysit it. My pet, on the other hand, takes up 2 skill slots (charm and comfort) just to equip, more to be useful, I have to constantly heal and buff it, it can't be upgraded, it won't give me health, mana, or armor the way that my bow will, I can't use preps on my pet, and my pet can not use any Armor Penetrating attacks.

So, if I have to spec Beast Mastery to carry 3 spirits for my team, I should be using that "weapon" INSTEAD of my bow? Hmmm....no. I think I'll just take my reduced damage and maybe babysit my pet if I have free slots.
Not all weapons can be upgraded, either (See: Wands). If you don't want to take care of your pet and you don't think the skills are worth it, then don't use it - I don't care. Some people don't think Swords are worth it, but that doesn't mean it isn't a weapon.

As for preperations, it is just as much a bow skill as Ripostes is to sword. You can't use Deadly Riposte on say an Axe, and you can't use preperations on Pets. Same thing.

Pets do give health, you just don't see it. By having a pet, your health is balooned: Because it is your offense, if it dies, most your offence dies. However, you are still alive and you still have health - you can still do things, such as res. If they go for you before the pet, then your pet is still alive if you die. That is the advanatage, a living weapon. If they are attack your pet, they aren't attacking you, while you keep it alive with Comfort and Predator Pounce, if they are attacking you, they are being wailed on with pet attacks. I can keep my pet alive quite a long time, but if you don't have the patience, then don't use a pet. That is YOUR weapon choice.
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32   #44
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Originally Posted by ComMan
I should stop right here and say "I rest my case." I really should. Apparently Poison, which does exactly 8 dps, as the olly Wilderness Survival skill you have, does more damage than a 15-25 damage bow and Tiger's Fury. But you're not even using Beast Mastery, so Tiger's Fury would be a waste of a skill slot, wouldn't it?

And at the same time, I sure can't use Poison with my BOW! No way...



So you're such a badass that you can interrupt skills that take 0-.75 seconds, despite the fact that the fight time on the fastest bows is .65 seconds? The build that you posted has neither Favorable Winds nor Read the Wind, so you can't speed up your arrows. Just disrupting lunge can't possibly disable every single skill I have, even if you use Oath Shot to go with it.

In other words: this is an obvious lie.

Trying to make yourself sound uber is just pointing out the flaws in your own argument.



Do you understand what you're saying? You've tested EVERY SINGLE COMBINATION in EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SITUATION and PROVEN that you will ALWAYS do more damage without Marksmanship?

If you think what I said is wrong you're free to provide facts to back yourself up, but spewing "you're stupid!" won't help your case. Poison by itself isn't doing as much damage as you can with a bow just by spamming Penetrating Attack or Tiger's Fury. Same skill slots, same attribute points used, more damage. If you think I'm lying then do one of your scientific tests on it.



Pin Down sure can't snare, and I sure can't use Throw Dirt since my build has 13 Expertise.

As for traps, they certainly don't do 50 damage for 15 mana and have huge recharge times. In opposition to that, Penetrating attack sure can't do 70 damage for 10 mana, and sure doesn't have a 3 second recharge time. I'm sure your traps and the bleeding they cause is outdamage my Melandru's Arrows and the bleeding that they cause though, despite the fact that it's the same thing. Besides, I never get that +21 damage from Melandru's Arrows.



Because I can use Runes to modify my secondary class! D'oh, wait no I can't! There are also tons on Non-Ranger skills affected by Expertise! Oh wait, only Ranger and Warrior skills are affected by Expertise.

Aside from that, as a Ranger I'm sure the team didn't pick me up for my Ranger skills. Guess I'll spam Mesmer skills and wonder why they didn't recruit a Mesmer primary, since he can get 16 Domination and i can only get 12.

If you're actually using your secondary it's for something very specific. Just carrying random Mesmer skills won't help me or my team at all, which is why I don't carry them.



hmm....let me think here...

Poison- 8 damage per second
Bleed- 6 damage per second.

14 damage per second....less if every single shot from my bow does minimum damage.

If you think Epidemic is good then you've clearly never actually used it. 2 warrirors on the same target can be far enough apart that it won't affect them. I'm not exaggerating on this, it's very true.

You do realize that I can carry Wilderness Survival AND Marksmanship, right? I do play a 3 attribute build, I just never take Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery at the same time. I switch them depending on what my team needs spirit-wise.

I can tell from your posts that you're a real team player, and are plenty willing to rework your build to fit what your team wants.



True, I can carry Barrage, but I have 12 Marks and 13 Expertise, so I can spam it and do +13 damage every second. You know what else? I'll never deplete my mana doing this. Can you say the same?



So if I'm, say, in an 8 v 8 arena, and the other team has 3 monks and at least 2 elementalists, all of whom can stand apart from each other and still do their jobs, this is obviously going to do me a lot of good. That must be why I see so many Air Elementalists (single target damage) and so few Fire Elementalists (area of effect)! Brilliant!



Pets do 15-25 if you're running 12 BM, if your pet is doing 5-10 then the build you posted is a lie and everything you've said is hypothetical.

But you scientifically tested every single aspect of the game, so you know that.



I'll let that statement stand for itself. I'm going out of my way to make counterpoints to this for the people that actually read before responding. If you're reading this and still support what this guy's saying, please don't put an obvious contradation in a "major point."




And sometimes they kill your pet before you die, disabling you for 14 seconds at least (8 seconds because your pet died, 6 seconds to cast revive animal). Funny, this can't happen with my bow....

And sometimes they just walk away, because your pet won't leave your corpse. Then again, a lot of the time they ignore you pet, because without any skills to back him up he's not a threat.

This is the last set of counter-points you're getting. If you or your buddies have any other "You don't need marksmanship you noob!" arguments to make, then please pick someone else to put them forward.
If i have to drop my wilderness survival for marksmanship, no i can't use poison with my bow,... god you make no sense... i'm gonna stop readin your post at that... Not to mention your idea of me not "having" certain skills, even tho i've left three still open, and that's including charm animal and comfort animal...

Sounds like it might be your bed time, cause you're making yourself sound stupid.

You seriously sound like you haven't played the game, and there's no point in me getting frustrated at your stupidity...

I read that last part, and they changed it so your skills don't disable whenever the pet dies... or perhaps a bug i encountered just today and for a while since a patch?

Well, have fun with the game... and seriously, you're too closed minded... goodbye sir.

End of story.

Edit:: Ok, i lied and read a bit more... pet and bow = more damage you say? No, i still say you're stupid, you have to read what i type before "spewing" up crap that you type. As i've stated, my poison for 24 seconds on 8 different characters is going to be dealing the same amount of damage to all armor types, rather then your stupid idea... not to mention, in using wilderness survival, as i also stated, allows me to use traps (more damage you stupid moron)

Yes, i still call you a moron, and still use facts, while you still try to find errors in my typing up things... when the real fact is, you don't know how to read.
Last edited by Perishiko ReLLiK; Jul 02, 2005 at 06:37 AM // 06:37..
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38   #45
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many times it was a ranger and their speed that rescued the party who wer either dead or near to it...I like a ranger with every group I join. e/r lvl 20 and e/mo lvl 20
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55   #46
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Originally Posted by lynx
many times it was a ranger and their speed that rescued the party who wer either dead or near to it...I like a ranger with every group I join. e/r lvl 20 and e/mo lvl 20
I agree. When I play my monk I won't join groups that don't have Frozen Soil, because the rez fests get out of control and my mana won't last that long.

Rangers contribute a lot to the team, but you have to watch them to understand just how much it is. I played a Ranger, got sick of "sucking" and never finding a group, and tried out a Monk template because everybody wants them. It didn't take me long to realize how much the Rangers in my group were contributing to the team, so I wizened up and followed their example.

Worthy of note is that "their example" did not include bringing a pet.

Why would you quote that ENTIRE post just to respond with "lol ur stupid!"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGuru
But again, whatever that Ranger can do, the other class can do better. A mesmer can kill a caster in a couple of seconds. A elementalist can do up to 200 spike damage in a couple seconds. Again, a ranger has a hard time shining in groups that effecient without him.
I didn't notice this post before.

The spirits are the skills that REALLY shine for Rangers. Frozen Soil, Fertile Saeson, Symbyosis, Predatory Season, Nature's Renewal, Muddy Terrain (yeah, that's right! Muddy Terrain!), Greater Conflag + Winter (dependant on team build) can completely change a battle.

You won't out-damage a warrior on ele, regardless of what "OMFG I R UBER!" Ranger will claim (while they're not using Marksmanship), but you can still put a lot of hurt on casters, even if you're no good at taking out Warriors. But can that warrior give everyone +270 HP, rendering damage spikes worthless and teams with high DPS/Armor at an advantage? Can that spike ele reduce ALL healing by 20%? Can that Mesmer remove every single enchantment and hex on the field with one skill?
Last edited by ComMan; Jul 02, 2005 at 07:06 AM // 07:06..
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 07:42 AM // 07:42   #47
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Originally Posted by ComMan
The spirits are the skills that REALLY shine for Rangers. Frozen Soil, Fertile Saeson, Symbyosis, Predatory Season, Nature's Renewal, Muddy Terrain (yeah, that's right! Muddy Terrain!), Greater Conflag + Winter (dependant on team build) can completely change a battle.

You won't out-damage a warrior on ele, regardless of what "OMFG I R UBER!" Ranger will claim (while they're not using Marksmanship), but you can still put a lot of hurt on casters, even if you're no good at taking out Warriors. But can that warrior give everyone +270 HP, rendering damage spikes worthless and teams with high DPS/Armor at an advantage? Can that spike ele reduce ALL healing by 20%? Can that Mesmer remove every single enchantment and hex on the field with one skill?
Frozen Soil is good if against heavily res-ing teams, but not needed if your team are defensive. We've won plenty of battle without having to use this skill because if there DP gets too high, they are not much fight anyway. DP 30% hurts your performance. Muddy Terrain sucks compare to Ward of Foes. At least WAF doesn't slow your whole team down. Symbyosis is just liable as Life bond, Nature Renewal sucks because 5 out of your 8 team members use enchantments and 1 or 2 of them probably use hexes. Unless you are on team of rangers and warriors (I'll mention later), eveyrone is going to hate you. Fertile season and Predatory are good in ranger/warrior team too, but that's if you aren't relying on healing.

Finally the Winter/Great Conflag is a great idea if you do the Ra/Me x 4 + Wa/Me x4 group using elemental stance. Combined with Nature's Renewal, you'll only do one type of damage, protection monks, mesmer and necromancers are useless. Just have the rangers take out all the spellcasters and have the warriors take out the other warriors by hamstring them so they can't get to the rangers.
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14   #48
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Originally Posted by ComMan
If you think Epidemic is good then you've clearly never actually used it.
Indeed, Epidemic sucks ass.
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 08:31 AM // 08:31   #49
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I personally rely not so much on marksmanship, because I know I can't dish out the physical damage. However if I can do some good with skills that cause hp degeneration (poison, flame, bleeding) I'm particularly content. The skills that give me a chance to avoid enemy hits (like Whirling Defense, Throw Dirt, and Lightning Reflexes) are great to have as well. In reference to our so called small variety of weapons, ranger and firing speed are good enough to be looked upon ass different weapons. And as stated earlier, traps are great. They can even account for another weapon.

About how ANet doesn't care much about us... Well, I do have to say I haven't seen many updates for the ranger except for the pets. But maybe I'm not looking hard enough. ^_^;;
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 09:02 AM // 09:02   #50
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Aren't there max damage weapons that don't have skill requirements? I've heard they're rare, but out there.
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Old Jul 02, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12   #51
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Aren't there max damage weapons that don't have skill requirements? I've heard they're rare, but out there.
No, if they do exist then they're fromt he betas and won't be dropped anymore.

The 34% damage is from the Treastise on Game Mechanics, which you should read if you haven't.

I'll point out AGAIN that Rituals are made for organized team play, not "everybody pick whatever you want and hammer your own target." If you have Nature's Renewal, then your team either shouldn't be running enchantments or shouldn't put them on until after Renewal has been placed. If you're running Predatory Season, then your team probably shouldn't have 4 healing monks. The point is to use Rituals that will give your team's build the upper-hand.
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Old Jul 04, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06   #52
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I should of put on a flame shield..
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Old Jul 04, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07   #53
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I should of put on a flame shield..
LOL!

Good one.
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Old Jul 04, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56   #54
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Ignore CaptainKO, I mean CaptainGuru, everyone at Gamefaqs does. Or else he may attempt explain why Rangers, Mesmers, and Necros are completely worthless like he did over there.
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Old Jul 04, 2005, 02:44 AM // 02:44   #55
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Originally Posted by ComMan
This is true, I was pleasantly surprised to see pets improved. Too bad they're still not any good for PvP.

They'll get all of the 15K armor eventually. Just wait a while.
In 5 more nights max you'll see that's changed. We have a pet build ready too take HoH down hardcore. Watch for Darren Shann's group in HoH.
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Old May 05, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38   #56
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Originally Posted by BigTru
They aren't forced to use Marksman because it isn't their only weapon.

Fact: Pet's have the same properties as every other weapon (Slashing, Piercing, Blunt)

Fact: If push space while targeting a foe, the pet will attack the enemy in the same way a hand weapon would.

Fact: Pet's have a weapon bracket just like hand weapons (Example: Elder Widow: 17-29 Damage). Their damage range and critical hit rate increases as you increase beastmastery, just as Weapons have requirements and have increased critical hit rate with more points invested in it.

Fact: Pet's have an attack speed, just as weapons do.

I tear shit up in PvP and PvE and I do not have 12 in Marksmanship. Mabey you should actually try something new instead of trying the same old tired and tested builds and you will see their is more builds than just shutdown rangers and barrage-bots? Beastmasters and Spirit Rangers are both highly underated at the moment.



You have either A) Never played with a good Ranger, B) Are new and never seen a spirit Ranger, C) Never played as Ranger, or D) Sucked at Ranger when you did play it.
I tottally back up with what you say,you do not have to use a bpw but thats what rangers arre for but, you can easily be touch ranger,great build,you can eb a hammer ranger and many more, i get owned by many of these builds but alot of people think that rangers are useless and only are used for interrupts you give me a r-spike and we go against a balanced and we will own , rangers are alot more powerful than you think, i took down a boon/prot monk and a life degen necro, my build had melandrus arrows as an elite troll and healing breeze as healing and then skills like hunters shot pin down concussion shot and things like that and even savagge shot, this build is perfect for adding bleeding and crippling you can switch it out wherever you like im just saying rangers are not there just to add crippling or bleeding or even interrupts they are there for a reason, to add damage and ranger is my favorite profession the only thing i would want to change is to give them one more weapon some kind of sword or dagger for melee or even a stick i would be happy with . im just saying rangers are alot more needed than you think.
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Old May 06, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52   #57
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I'm sure ANet loves their rangers just as much as any of the classes. Storm Bow is one of the few weapons that has a truly active effect (the electric stuff going around it--only competition is with IDS/FDS). Besides, there are SO many types of bows, and you've gotta have an archer class. If you're not satisfied with that, be a R/W. Those work quite well to be honest.
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Old May 06, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31   #58
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This thread is from july of last year, people are whining about how OVERPOWERED rangers are these days
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Old May 06, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnidragon42
This thread is from july of last year, people are whining about how OVERPOWERED rangers are these days
Then why did a monk have the nerve to reject me from a Raisu Pavilion team, because he was "taking the important stuff first", and then when I said "rangers are important", respond "no, not really"?

Imo many players are still ignorant with regards to how awesome rangers can be :P
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